Recently, there have been a number of posts either degrading the wizards
qualities, or rebutting these. I thought it might be more convenient to
just respond to all posts in one, rather than individually. Please forgive
if this is a bit confusing.
-First off, Silverion has been comparing the "twinkability" of spellcasters
to tanks. I think we're all pretty much in agreement that tanks twink much
more easily. It's pretty obvious after all. I agree that Silverion's
example wasn't perhaps the best, but if you take lvl 35 gear and slap it
onto a wizard (and let's be generous here: say glowing stein, sacrificial
dagger, robe of the oracle, etc.) as compared to putting full plate onto a
cleric, or crafted onto a warrior (which I personally testify is very
obtainable to lvl 35 types) you immediately notice that the tank twinks are
much much more effective at low levels.
Now I detest such twinks personally and wouldn't mind if Verant diminished
to impact of twinked items [my own private fantasy solution involves some
random probability of you being assaulted and robbed by higher lvl npc
raiders if your equipment far exceeds your level, hehe], but the current
state of imbalance really doesn't effect wizards in any negative way.
Seriously, if you watch twinked characters, you'll notice that usually they
want to solo (better xp that way, and they are--after all--powergamers). So
they weren't going to group with you anyway, in all likelihood. Second, the
newbie zones right now on the mature servers (where twinking is rampant) are
not overly crowded. Twinked characters aren't really interfering with our
own progression. They are just being . . . annoying.
While a more level playing field would be nice, Verant certainly shouldn't
try to level the playing field by making twinked spellcasters *more*
effective.
-Second. Excellent commentary by Vincent Archer. A few comments of my own.
> From: Vincent Archer <Vincent.Archer@...>
> Subject: Re: Items poliferation is a sword of damakle over Casters!
<snip>
> There are three kind of imbalances that "require" correction:
First, I think the following are all pretty well thought out imbalances, but
I have some comments.
>
> An imbalance that prevents you from adventuring and getting in a group
> ("we can't solo" is not an imbalance; EQ's target is groups, not solo)
I almost agree here. My disagreement lies in two parts. First, Verant
didn't really intend for individuals to group right off. Most people solo
off and on at least until lvl 10, and often lvl 20. (The benefits of
grouping show up around level 6 or so, but soloing usually doesn't become
"impossible" until the 20's.) The classes, IMO, were *designed* to be that
way. Afterall, it takes awhile to find your regular group and if you can't
do anything solo, you are very apt to quit the game early on. That's not in
Verant's best interest, or ours. At any rate, the first 20 levels
constitutes a pretty substantial part of the game, so *decent* balance in
the pre 20's is probably desirable. My second disagreement is simply a
matter of degree. How difficult does it have to be to get into a group or
adventure before we acknowledge that the imbalance should be fixed? We all
know the joys of trying to find a group as a wizard before lvl 12. And we
are certainly *less* desirable at many other levels. Not so much as to be a
total handicap, but it is there. I've played 4 classes now on The Rathe and
can say that, for whatever reason (stigma associated with killstealers, our
inability to buff, or vulnerability during battle, etc.) wizards are a
difficult class to find a group with.
We have one real perk. We teleport. Mind you, it's not a unique perk, and
IMO druids sites are a bit better at lower lvls. Since our access to the
planes is pretty much cut off, our ability to shine in this area is also
crimped. And, of course, people want teleports without necessarily wanting
to group with you. [I ran into a real problem in my guild, for instance,
where people wanted Glyphin to show up and teleport them around, but he was
always the last person to be asked to group when the guild was decending
into Guk or Mistmoore, etc. (with some notable exceptions).]
Now I say all of this to make one point: The wizard class is certainly
playable, but it is more FRUSTRATING than the other classes. You will spend
more time trying, unsuccessfully, to solo because you can't find a group.
You will be persona non grata on many occasions, and you will certainly not
get the credit you are due in groups most of the time. So while I'd agree
that the imbalance as such doesn't prevent me from playing my wizard, I'd
point out that I'm spending much less time with him than I used to. This
is, IMO, bad for Verant.
Possible fix to be suggested in a moment.
> An imbalanbce that prevents you from leveling and getting in a rgoup
> with people you want to group with.
Actually, wizards level pretty well I think. We die more often but since
we're the only true spell caster without a pet, we seem to earn xp at a
greater rate. I've watched enchanters, magicians and necros lvl with me,
and the playing field in that regard seems pretty fair.
> An imbalance that make a class so unplayable or so easy that people
> will avoid that class or rush to that class.
Well, and I certainly agree that an imbalance this extreme is a Bad Thing.
But long before it gets *that* extreme, it probably merits some course
correction. Consider, for instance, what types of people play wizards (and
let's be honest here)--a bunch of antisocial jerks. Oh, not all of us by
any means. But the people who read the manual or the newgroups and say to
themselves, "I want to be able to out blast everyone, kill steal, etc.,"
these are the sorts of people that go on to choose wizards. And the rest of
us have to live with that. So one the one hand we have more than our fair
share of The Egotistical and The Puerile, and on the other hand, those of us
who are truely trying to find groups, make friends, etc. quickly discover
(or not so quickly in my case) that the other classes are better for social
symbiotic relationships.
This is a Very Very Bad thing, IMO. And even if there are enough wizards
running around that it doesn't look like there's a real shortage of them, I
think we still need to acknowledge that this is a problem. If you think I'm
exaggerating, consider the last time you were hunting/camping a valuable mob
and a wizard 3 levels or higher showed up. Wasn't your first thought that
he/she might be getting ready to kill steal?
Silverion said:
> Wizard dont suck as you say but they need some attention as they was very
> god balanced class at start but as others get powered up and fine tuned
> also wizard class need to get some changes.
I'm not so sure that a) they were all that ballanced at the start or b) that
because the other classes were changed, wizards need to be changed, but I
sure do agree with you that something needs to be done. (And, btw, I point
out that my position on this has turned around 180 degrees.)
<snip>
> Second every class have its strong and low levels ... wizards are low at
> start (what is expected) and at end (what is not expected) but are strong
> at middle lv. I wish to get lo high lv and be able to participate at
dragon
> hunt if you read some posts of 50 lv guys WIZARD cant do it now and this
is
> a BIG problem for me. Wich can be maybe resolved with items wich lower
> resistence so we return to my first post.
I'm not so sure I agree here, but this is because I have no first hand
experience with dragons. Give me another 14 lvls or so, hehe. You may yet
convince me ;)
Here are my proposed changes, and arguments. Hear them, and flame away:
First, after some very careful consideration and playing of other mage
classes, I've noticed one area where wizards are at a serious (and, IMO,
unfair) disadvantage--interrupts. All other spell casters have pets.
Because of this, their escape probability is dramatically improved. Hit F1
twice, watch pet, pet gets low on health, run, etc., or if you're getting
pounded on, back off a bit, let the pet do it's thing and gate or run.
Doesn't always work (say against a high red), but then when it comes to high
reds, we all die quickly. The biggest difference is in dealing with the
"more managable mobs"--blues, and white/blacks, for instance. If you are a
careful enchanter/magician/necro, you can solo througout the zone and never
or rarely die. Never, never, ever to a green. You always have time to get
a head start on a run or a gate. Because of the xp cost of pets, you don't
level at a vastly higher rate, but these classes are much less frustrating.
We all know the experience where we're dying to a high green mob, can't get
a spell off, can't run, etc. Other spell casters can avoid this.
Now the obvious rebutal is that I'm comparing a weakness of the wizard class
to the strenghts of the others. Well, sure, but I think it's still a valid
comparison. Wizards are supposed to be pure offense, so no pet. Fine. But
when we're getting hit, we aren't pure offense. We're pure corpse. We
can't cast to any end. Our survivability in these cases is tied entirely to
how far away the zone is. That's pure rubbish.
Personally, I'd be willing to make one trade concession in the wizard class.
I'd like our channeling skill to be significantly higher than the other
spell casters (say an extra 2 pts per lvl). We need it, and it makes sense
from virtually every angle (role play, balance, etc.). And I'd be willing
to incure an xp penalty for it, to keep leveling balanced. My point is
simply that when wizards get into melee situations, they should still have
some casting ability. It is, after all, the only thing wizards have (unlike
ALL other casters). They ought to be the best at channeling.
Second, we need some way to make wizards more of a symbiotic class. We are
simply not as desirable for grouping as the other classes in most scenarios.
There may be many ways of going about this. Here's my one suggestion
(paired down for space purposes, but I think you can see how it could be
modified for balance, etc.). Wizards (perhaps with the help of an
enchanter) should be able to cast their damage spells onto the weapons of
other classes. One possible implementation would be to have an "enchanted
weapon" randomly go off for, say, 1/10th of the total damage possible in the
spell, for up to 10 hits. This would allow a wizard to "buff" in a
meaningful way. Tanks would want us, and it would increase our
effectiveness because the damage would cause hate buildup towards the tank,
not us (which becomes a serious problem at higher levels). I've talked to
enough non-wizards who loved this idea that I think it worth bringing before
a group of wizards, possibly for a petition.
couple of last comments:
Micon Bittermage said:
> There is one other solution that to me is a lot more in keeping with the
> AD&D style that I think people are used to - randomization. You are
> right tho that virtually all quests are breaks down to kill X and give
> its head/heart/tongue/whatever to NPC Y. But randomizing would make
> them more quest-like. Easier to explain in an example:
>
I agree wholeheartedly.
<snip>
> Lastly, to address the twinking problem: Maybe the stein instead of
> giving +10 int would give (+2 times level/10). Therefore, your level 50
> wizard has a +10 int stein, but his twinked level 2 wizard has the same
> stein at +0 int! Easily explained that with wisdom of levels you gain
> the ability to use a sword better (damage =level, or something similar),
> gain more power from the gem, or whatever.
This is a good solution, but the problem (as I see it) isn't the twinked
wizards, but the twinked tanks. A glowing stein that gives plus 10 int, is
only giving a lvl 5 wizard (to pull an example from a hat) an extra 10 mana.
This is trivial. In contrast, a warrior wearing several pieces of bronze
(say 40 or 50 pp worth--substantially less than a glowing stein in value) at
lvl 1 or 2 gets a significant boost to AC (roughly 50 to 100 AC points).
I've played around enough with low level spell casters and tanks to know
that the difference is impressive.
Anyway, I don't know how twinking should be solved. I have yet to hear a
solution I like.
-Glyphin E'Mondredon
-The Rathe