i just like the fact that if a warrior misses once....or does low damage
on one hit....he is screwed that round. We however have alot more chances
to hit.....and yes..miss aswell...
and second....which would you rather have...someone who can and WILL get
hit alot....warrior...or someone who can and wont get hit alot?
Sligo
Cazic Thule
Silent Fist
On 1 Dec 1999 EQ-Monks@onelist.com wrote:
>
> >
> There are 16 messages in this issue.
>
> Topics in today's digest:
>
> 1. The best fight of my life
> From: James W Hooper <jhooper@...>
> 2. Re: The best fight of my life
> From: "Sheldon Jolson" <Sheldon_Jolson@...>
> 3. Re: The best fight of my life
> From: James W Hooper <jhooper@...>
> 4. Re: The best fight of my life
> From: blacoste@...
> 5. Easy Now
> From: "John Carney" <jcarney@...>
> 6. Re: The best fight of my life
> From: "Tim Perkins" <tperkins@...>
> 7. Re: Easy Now
> From: JnglSkyPWR@...
> 8. RE: Easy Now
> From: "John Carney" <jcarney@...>
> 9. Intellectual exercise was RE: Easy Now
> From: James W Hooper <jhooper@...>
> 10. Re: Easy Now
> From: Jeffrey Sue <jsue@...>
> 11. Re: The best fight of my life
> From: "Sheldon Jolson" <Sheldon_Jolson@...>
> 12. Re: Easy Now
> From: "Dizzy J." <dizzyj@...>
> 13. Re: Intellectual exercise was RE: Easy Now
> From: JnglSkyPWR@...
> 14. Re: Easy Now
> From: JnglSkyPWR@...
> 15. RE: Easy Now
> From: Worlord <worlord99@...>
> 16. Re: Easy Now
> From: JnglSkyPWR@...
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:48:19 -0500
> From: James W Hooper <jhooper@...>
> Subject: The best fight of my life
>
> Over the last few weeks, I have seen the "older" and "wiser" monks on these
> list moan about the changes in Feign Death. Everyone has strong feelings
> about the game and the changes that have been made. People have stated
> that the changes have made monks unplayable. I really don't know, since I
> have only been playing for a few weeks and have not made it to the level
> necessary for feign death. Last night, however, I reaffirmed my belief
> that the Monk class is truly the best class in this game, regardless of
> design changes. I will elaborate.
>
> I had just leveled to 15th and had trained all available slots into Double
> Attack. I figured I would make a trip out to Black Burrow to hone my
> skills before moving on to bigger game. I know that at my level, that most
> of the gnolls wouldn't give me any XP. I could pick up the teeth and gain
> some small XP there. I was playing solo. There were several PCs around,
> with a group of 13-15th level deciding to take on the gnoll commanders.
> They were full up and I didn't go. I stayed around the rest area, picking
> off patrolling gnolls, and guards an the occasional brewer. I had gone
> back to the rest area for a breather. Then, it happened: Someone ticked
> off the gnolls up in the commander area and trained them down onto us. It
> looked like an angry swarm coming out of a bee hive. I was playing in full
> window mode and the entire screen was filled with overlapping gnoll images.
> There was everything from Scrawny gnolls, up to the Commanders. I could
> not tell who my target was or how many there were. Everyone in that room
> was in for the fight of their digital lives. At one point I know I was
> fighting 2 guards, an elite guard and a commander. That I could tell from
> the descriptive text. Spells were flying, weapons were slashing, and my
> fist and feet were flying as fast as I could throw them. Several
> relatively low level casters fell first. Then, the panic set in. People
> started running, but the train didn't follow them away. It stayed there.
> The PC panic was led by a pair of Troll warriors, who conned red to me. I
> saw them and others run. I just kept fighting. I managed to get a mend
> off and a cleric or Druid healed me at one point in the fight. When it was
> all over, the only 2 PCs left in the room full of gnoll bodies, were myself
> and another monk who was 16th level. I still had 2 1/2 bubbles of health.
> I picked up 8 gnoll teeth out of that fight and dumped more coin than I
> wanted to carry. With the exception of the heal, I had no magical buffs,
> not even a SOW to help in case of retreat. I wear cured silk armor, but
> more than 2/3 of my AC is innate. I don't have any fancy equipment,
> although I do have the money to purchase some. The next time some warrior
> starts talking about how great they are, their armor is, their weapons,
> etc.., just relate this little story.
>
> Shando, 15th circle of the Silent Fist Clan
> Bertoxxolous
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:18:06 -0500
> From: "Sheldon Jolson" <Sheldon_Jolson@...>
> Subject: Re: The best fight of my life
>
>
>
> A monk is very fun in his teens. Once you get past the 20s you
> will find ver very few places you can solo, however. By that time,
> a mob that cons low blue will take out the best equipped monk
> without much of a sweat. You will also start seeing warriors or
> other melee types wielding weapons that easily make them better
> damagers than you. Rangers with dual ykeshas in their low 30s
> are not uncommon and those weapons essentially do the same
> damage as a 44th level monk. Also at 30th level warriros get a
> huge HP bonus. You will see their ability to tank go up dramatically
> where as we can barely take hits from higher level mobs. But what
> set us apart was feign death. With that skill I feared no zone. I
> could go anywhere as I had a nice safety net. Now that safety net
> is gone. I have to cower at the zone lines with those same warriors
> until some group is nice enough to pick me up. Unfortunately, they
> would rather not anymore. Alas there isn't much left for me to do so
> I have been looking into a nice retirement community next door to
> the druid retirement grove. I may try to kill a few dragons from time
> to time, but I am not wanted there anymore either. Too much mana
> to keep me alive. Troll Warriors are much more mana efficient.
>
> Oh well. Now I may finally find peace and tranquility.
>
>
>
> From: James W Hooper <jhooper@...>
>
> Over the last few weeks, I have seen the "older" and "wiser" monks on these
> list moan about the changes in Feign Death. Everyone has strong feelings
> about the game and the changes that have been made. People have stated
> that the changes have made monks unplayable. I really don't know, since I
> have only been playing for a few weeks and have not made it to the level
> necessary for feign death. Last night, however, I reaffirmed my belief
> that the Monk class is truly the best class in this game, regardless of
> design changes. I will elaborate.
>
> I had just leveled to 15th and had trained all available slots into Double
> Attack. I figured I would make a trip out to Black Burrow to hone my
> skills before moving on to bigger game. I know that at my level, that most
> of the gnolls wouldn't give me any XP. I could pick up the teeth and gain
> some small XP there. I was playing solo. There were several PCs around,
> with a group of 13-15th level deciding to take on the gnoll commanders.
> They were full up and I didn't go. I stayed around the rest area, picking
> off patrolling gnolls, and guards an the occasional brewer. I had gone
> back to the rest area for a breather. Then, it happened: Someone ticked
> off the gnolls up in the commander area and trained them down onto us. It
> looked like an angry swarm coming out of a bee hive. I was playing in full
> window mode and the entire screen was filled with overlapping gnoll images.
> There was everything from Scrawny gnolls, up to the Commanders. I could
> not tell who my target was or how many there were. Everyone in that room
> was in for the fight of their digital lives. At one point I know I was
> fighting 2 guards, an elite guard and a commander. That I could tell from
> the descriptive text. Spells were flying, weapons were slashing, and my
> fist and feet were flying as fast as I could throw them. Several
> relatively low level casters fell first. Then, the panic set in. People
> started running, but the train didn't follow them away. It stayed there.
> The PC panic was led by a pair of Troll warriors, who conned red to me. I
> saw them and others run. I just kept fighting. I managed to get a mend
> off and a cleric or Druid healed me at one point in the fight. When it was
> all over, the only 2 PCs left in the room full of gnoll bodies, were myself
> and another monk who was 16th level. I still had 2 1/2 bubbles of health.
> I picked up 8 gnoll teeth out of that fight and dumped more coin than I
> wanted to carry. With the exception of the heal, I had no magical buffs,
> not even a SOW to help in case of retreat. I wear cured silk armor, but
> more than 2/3 of my AC is innate. I don't have any fancy equipment,
> although I do have the money to purchase some. The next time some warrior
> starts talking about how great they are, their armor is, their weapons,
> etc.., just relate this little story.
>
> Shando, 15th circle of the Silent Fist Clan
> Bertoxxolous
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:41:27 -0500
> From: James W Hooper <jhooper@...>
> Subject: Re: The best fight of my life
>
> At 02:18 PM 11/30/1999 -0500, you wrote:
> >From: "Sheldon Jolson" <Sheldon_Jolson@...>
> >
> >
> >
> >A monk is very fun in his teens. Once you get past the 20s you
> >will find ver very few places you can solo, however. By that time,
> >a mob that cons low blue will take out the best equipped monk
> >without much of a sweat. You will also start seeing warriors or
> >other melee types wielding weapons that easily make them better
> >damagers than you. Rangers with dual ykeshas in their low 30s
> >are not uncommon and those weapons essentially do the same
> >damage as a 44th level monk. Also at 30th level warriros get a
> >huge HP bonus. You will see their ability to tank go up dramatically
> >where as we can barely take hits from higher level mobs. But what
> >set us apart was feign death. With that skill I feared no zone. I
> >could go anywhere as I had a nice safety net. Now that safety net
> >is gone.
>
> Thanks for raining on my parade.
>
> You have attained a level of experience that I may not obtain for months.
> Please understand that this is based on my limited experience and opinion.
> Prehaps those of us who haven't played under the old feign death, will find
> other means to deal with the problems you listed. No disrespect meant to
> you or any of the others, but it sounds like feign death was a crutch.
> Maybe at higher levels we need to learn to adjust our tactics and stop
> meeting problems head on. We should be thinking fighters. Let the wariors
> wade in and trade blows with the big bad guy. Let the warriors take the
> role of the tank, while we take the role of the Smart bomb. We zero in on
> a target and take them out clean and fast. I agree that warrior based
> classes and their weapons can do more damge than we can, per hit, but I
> still think we hit more often. They are also too dependent upon those
> weapons for their abilites. Everything we have is innate. Let Verant
> throw in a zone or two that magic doesn't work and see who is really the
> true meele (sp?) master. Strip a warrior of his weapons and armor and you
> have a target . Strip us, and we are still deadly. I think we just have
> to adjust our purpose in the Verant universe
>
> Shando 15th circle, Silent Fist Clan
> Bertoxxolous
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 4
> Date: 30 Nov 1999 19:50:03 -0000
> From: blacoste@...
> Subject: Re: The best fight of my life
>
> I know a lot of people are going to disagree with me, but Verant's change to
> the feign death is warranted. People WERE exploiting the FD especially
> inside the planes. One way to fix that WITHOUT screwing a lot of lower level
> people was to make it where any creature under level 35, would think you
> were dead and forget about you while creatures 35th and up would use the
> different percentages setup by Verant. I think this fair. I have ONLY used
> feign death in serious situations where there was a train on my butt and I
> was definitely going to die because I couldn't make it to a zone. I feel
> that's what it was intended to do and some people figured out a way to
> exploit it in the planes with the big creatures. So thats that. I'm fine
> with it.
>
> As for other things, I have a 36th level monk on the Tribunal and I WOULDN'T
> have made it this far without having a balanced group of guildmembers to go
> around with. Since monks dont get the huge amounts of HPs we really lose out
> to the other warrior classes. Saying that I can honestly say that the monks
> are the best class in the game. I know you're looking forward to that flying
> kick skill too and while i'm at 180 skill I still miss about 60% of the time
> ,AGAINST LOW BLUES,even though I have a 131dex and 137agi. Even with these
> problems I will continue to play my monk though, UGLY robe and all, because
> I have to admit I have had fun playing it. Seeing "You kick a greater kobold
> for 88 points." is one hell of a rush. I also have one hell of bank
> account.
>
> Carissa (36th level Monk, Tribunal)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 15:07:13 -0500
> From: "John Carney" <jcarney@...>
> Subject: Easy Now
>
> Well, this is just getting plain silly. Your monk is not a worthless pile of
> meat. Its not a mana sponge, or a helpless school girl. The monk class at
> any level does a Great Deal of Damage, and in my opinion more than any other
> melee class with the exception of a warrior with Plane of Fear equipment.
> Your strength lies not with one or two glorious swings for 70 points of
> damage, but in four punches for 23, and a flying kick for 52. Your Armor
> class is not as high as a warriors, it never will be. Get used to it, but
> also get used to Block, Dodge, Block. You hit points are lower, until you
> factor in a 25% hit point heal every six minutes, you're selling yourself
> short.
>
> As for playing with Twinked characters who out damage you, I must answer to
> the positive. I've been playing with Ranger and Bard both of which carry top
> of the line Ykeesha's and they generally out damage me (then again, they
> take the damage then, too and I'm a hell of a lot harder to hit than some
> ranger). The gap is narrowing however, and would be closed if they were not
> wearing haste sashes. Remember, the higher you level, the less of an
> advantage Twinking Gives.
>
> Yes Verant has changed our most unique skill, it will still save youin tight
> situations, however. At least we have it! I've used it numerous times to get
> myself out of Castle Mistmoore when EVERYONE in my party died, twinks and
> casters alike. Indeed, they've suggested calling me Stonedorn EscapeArtist.
> Its harder now, but playing a Monk was never an easy path.
>
> To be honest, I think we've passed the meaningful discussion of the class
> and have entered into "the Grass is Greener" syndrome. If you're so unhappy
> with your Monk, Give It Up and go play a Dark Elf Necro. Please don't take
> the Monk Name in the Realm of Envious Complainers.
>
> Stonedorn Windrunner
> Cunnan's Brewing Company
> Xegony
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 15:16:08 -0800
> From: "Tim Perkins" <tperkins@...>
> Subject: Re: The best fight of my life
>
> I am kinda confused on why you think using a skill on a below 35th level mob
> is ok and why using it on an above 35th level mob is an exploit? I also
> undertsand that different people use different skill in different ways.
> Verant nerfed druids kiting but in return made them more viable in the
> group. it is all in how you use the skill while I see the need to fix an
> exploit (Verant specifically mentioned dragons and FD they did not mention
> monks specifically nor Planes that I have seen or heard) but to make a point
> you are correct that monks need a good group and the only groups I get now
> are guildmates and freinds because no one wants me anymore. At the higher
> levels there are so few places to hunt for exp and they all are train heavy
> places with lots of wanderers anbd thats just a risk neither I nor potential
> trains victums want.
>
> Kizmet Bayashi
> 45th level train engineer
> E-Marr
> Da`Kor
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <blacoste@...>
> To: <EQ-Monks@onelist.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 11:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [EQ-Monks] The best fight of my life
>
>
> > From: blacoste@...
> >
> > I know a lot of people are going to disagree with me, but Verant's change
> to
> > the feign death is warranted. People WERE exploiting the FD especially
> > inside the planes. One way to fix that WITHOUT screwing a lot of lower
> level
> > people was to make it where any creature under level 35, would think you
> > were dead and forget about you while creatures 35th and up would use the
> > different percentages setup by Verant. I think this fair. I have ONLY used
> > feign death in serious situations where there was a train on my butt and I
> > was definitely going to die because I couldn't make it to a zone. I feel
> > that's what it was intended to do and some people figured out a way to
> > exploit it in the planes with the big creatures. So thats that. I'm fine
> > with it.
> >
> > As for other things, I have a 36th level monk on the Tribunal and I
> WOULDN'T
> > have made it this far without having a balanced group of guildmembers to
> go
> > around with. Since monks dont get the huge amounts of HPs we really lose
> out
> > to the other warrior classes. Saying that I can honestly say that the
> monks
> > are the best class in the game. I know you're looking forward to that
> flying
> > kick skill too and while i'm at 180 skill I still miss about 60% of the
> time
> > ,AGAINST LOW BLUES,even though I have a 131dex and 137agi. Even with these
> > problems I will continue to play my monk though, UGLY robe and all,
> because
> > I have to admit I have had fun playing it. Seeing "You kick a greater
> kobold
> > for 88 points." is one hell of a rush. I also have one hell of bank
> > account.
> >
> > Carissa (36th level Monk, Tribunal)
> >
> > >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 15:37:20 EST
> From: JnglSkyPWR@...
> Subject: Re: Easy Now
>
> I just wanted to let you know about the AC issue and monks. We do have
> as good AC as warriors. At lvl 50, my AC is 824 base, and that's not with my
> tankin gear, I can easily bump it up to over 850.
> Now for my lil rant. HOW can you say using FD pulling was exploiting on
> the planes?? Do you know what happens now? Even more of a cheat if you ask
> me. Just takes longer, cause now after FD, you just need to /exit and wait 3
> min before loggin back into the server. I have been lvl 50 for about 2 or 3
> months now, and this nerf has seriously hurt our skills. We are pullers,
> that is our main contribution to a party after we get FD and hone our skills.
> We can still do this job, but it makes it MUCH more difficult and time
> comsuming. Yes you can get around it, BUT, IMHO, I now think we have to use
> more of a cheat to get around it. There are other ways, yes, but WHY (and
> believe me, I've sent in MANY feedbacks and petitions) did Verant change this
> skill. Okay, I'm done, thanks for listening all.
>
> Kanja
> Rodcet Nife
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 15:54:07 -0500
> From: "John Carney" <jcarney@...>
> Subject: RE: Easy Now
>
> >HOW can you say using FD pulling was exploiting on the planes?? Do you
> know what happens now? Even more of a cheat if you ask me. Just takes
> longer, cause now after FD, you just need to /exit and wait 3 min before
> loggin back into the server. I have been lvl 50 for about 2 or 3 months
> now, and this nerf has seriously hurt our skills. We are pullers, that is
> our main contribution to a party after we get FD and hone our skills.
>
> I didn't say it was. I don't think FD pulling is an exploit. It is handled
> wrong in the Gameplay Logic. Personally I think once you FD and a mob _sees_
> you back on your feet again, it should never believe another oneo of you
> FDs. As I've said before, Verant has a MUD mentality in which they balance
> gameplay at the expense of logic. This is bad design.
>
> Getting back to the point is the way in which two main incidents were
> handled. The first being the new monk robe, which is marginally better than
> a lockjaw vest AC 12 vs AC 9 vs and choice of which stat increases you think
> is most valuable. Personally, I'll take the AC at this point in my monks
> career. Introducing this item seemed to me a border line waste of time, not
> mine, but theirs. The second incident being the FD thing. My favorite
> example being when you stand back up and everyone but the caboose of the
> train forgets you and he goes along re-aggroing the lot.
>
> I think what got everyone so worked up was the FD split-pull defined the
> monk's role in the group. Now that role has changed, and its led to
> confusion and no small amount of bitterness. Given the over-crowding issue
> in most dungeons though, (75 in lower guk? _shudder_) the split-pull was
> becoming less important as "just finding" something to attack.
>
> Stone
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:20:12 -0500
> From: James W Hooper <jhooper@...>
> Subject: Intellectual exercise was RE: Easy Now
>
> A
> >
> >I think what got everyone so worked up was the FD split-pull defined the
> >monk's role in the group. Now that role has changed, and its led to
> >confusion and no small amount of bitterness. Given the over-crowding issue
> >in most dungeons though, (75 in lower guk? _shudder_) the split-pull was
> >becoming less important as "just finding" something to attack.
>
> I didn't realise that my little story was going to have people at each
> other's throats. I was posting something that I hoped would re-instill
> pride in our class, instead of everyone sitting around wringing their hand,
> how can we as the player's redefine our place in the s about how useless we
> are as a class. There are many intelligent people on this list, most of
> you are probably smarter than I am. Many of you have been playing the game
> and this class longer than I have. I suppose the situation is much akin to
> the role of children and parents. Since one of the roles of children in
> society is to question the way things are, I would like to propose a
> sersious intellectual discussion of the situation. Lets use the following
> question as that basis:
>
> Given Verant's change in the Feign Death skill, what can we as players do
> to change our role or our preceived role in the game, based on game mechanics?
>
> The rules:
> 1. Everyones opinion matters
> 2. No flaming or personal attacks
> 3. Quitting the game, playing Asheron's call, or starting new characters
> are not viable answers.
>
> Lets the fun begin.
>
> Shando, 15th circle of the Silent fist Clan
> Bertoxxolous
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:40:06 -0800
> From: Jeffrey Sue <jsue@...>
> Subject: Re: Easy Now
>
> maybe FD pulling itself is an exploit? maybe verant never intended the
> monk class
> to be able to break spawns by fd pulling? maybe they just intended it as a
> ''get out
> of death free'' card for the individual monk? I personally think some
> spawns should
> not be able to be broken since it makes the game too easy.
>
> At 03:37 PM 11/30/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >From: JnglSkyPWR@...
> >
> > I just wanted to let you know about the AC issue and monks. We do have
> >as good AC as warriors. At lvl 50, my AC is 824 base, and that's not with my
> >tankin gear, I can easily bump it up to over 850.
> > Now for my lil rant. HOW can you say using FD pulling was exploiting on
> >the planes?? Do you know what happens now? Even more of a cheat if you ask
> >me. Just takes longer, cause now after FD, you just need to /exit and wait 3
> >min before loggin back into the server. I have been lvl 50 for about 2 or 3
> >months now, and this nerf has seriously hurt our skills. We are pullers,
> >that is our main contribution to a party after we get FD and hone our skills.
> > We can still do this job, but it makes it MUCH more difficult and time
> >comsuming. Yes you can get around it, BUT, IMHO, I now think we have to use
> >more of a cheat to get around it. There are other ways, yes, but WHY (and
> >believe me, I've sent in MANY feedbacks and petitions) did Verant change this
> >skill. Okay, I'm done, thanks for listening all.
> >
> >Kanja
> >Rodcet Nife
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:54:32 -0500
> From: "Sheldon Jolson" <Sheldon_Jolson@...>
> Subject: Re: The best fight of my life
>
>
>
> Responding to 3 related posts - long <there may be some redundancies>
>
>
>
> From: James W Hooper <jhooper@...>
>
> >Thanks for raining on my parade.
>
> >You have attained a level of experience that I may not obtain for months.
> >Please understand that this is based on my limited experience and opinion.
>
> Sorry, that was not my intention. Like I said, my monk was great fun until
> very high levels for me so I expect you will enjoy your monk for quite a
> while. If he wasn't I would not have gotten him so far.
>
> >Prehaps those of us who haven't played under the old feign death, will find
> >other means to deal with the problems you listed. No disrespect meant to
> >you or any of the others, but it sounds like feign death was a crutch.
>
> Well I did not speak at all of FD pulling which is what you probably heard
> everyone mention. And FD IS a crutch. It was meant to be. I continued
> playing my monk because we were the masters of melee and also because
> of FD (I started my FD countdown at 12th level). At my level, rogues are the
> masters of melee and FD simply doesn't work well enough to use as a safety
> net. Plus the mobs I face cannot reasonably be meleed to death. We are
> just there to do damage to keep the mobs thinking about us while the nukers
> and DoTers (and healers) so their jobs.
>
> >Maybe at higher levels we need to learn to adjust our tactics and stop
> >meeting problems head on.
>
> Well, the FD pull technique was meant for just that 8).
>
> >Strip us, and we are still deadly. I think we just have
> >to adjust our purpose in the Verant universe
>
> I didn't get to my level just so I can still kill mobs while looking for my
> corpse.
> But of course that was another role for FD. Corpse recovery missions. No
> longer.
>
> From: blacoste@...
>
> >I know a lot of people are going to disagree with me, but Verant's change to
> >the feign death is warranted. People WERE exploiting the FD especially
> >inside the planes. One way to fix that WITHOUT screwing a lot of lower level
> >people was to make it where any creature under level 35, would think you
> >were dead and forget about you while creatures 35th and up would use the
> >different percentages setup by Verant. I think this fair.
>
> Inside the plains? At 36th level (unless you have another plane level char)
> I don't see how you can come to that conclusion. If anything, the change
> to FD is even more of an exploit. Imagine now that every mob in the game
> is able to track monks without fail. And as another post mentioned. If you
> think something is an exploit, why would you say it is ok for mobs under 35th
> level? I have always accepted that feigning on non KoS mobs and then
> popping back up (to bandage or whatnot) was something of an exploit and I
> have been expecting a fix. If they removed that a lot of lower level monks
> who relied on it to kill aviaks or whatever would have grumbled loudly as it
> would remove their main soloing technique (what would your reaction be if
> they did that to you at say 20th level or so?). However the nerf they did to FD
> didn't fix an exploit. It just gave the mobs one.
>
> >I have ONLY used
> >feign death in serious situations where there was a train on my butt and I
> >was definitely going to die because I couldn't make it to a zone.
>
> Good luck now since that aspect of FD has also been seriously degraded.
>
> >I feel
> >that's what it was intended to do and some people figured out a way to
> >exploit it in the planes with the big creatures. So thats that. I'm fine
> >with it.
>
> What difference does it make how it was intended? What you are saying is
> that verant should be expected to make things like tactics, strategy, and other
> forms of thinking in the game illegal. Giving mob an unlimited
> tracking/telepathic
> ability is the exploit here. What monks did was perfectly reasonable as long as
> mobs aren't telepathically linked, which - oh no - now they are! Telepathic
> orcs.
> What will they think of next.
>
>
> From: "John Carney" <jcarney@...>
>
> >Well, this is just getting plain silly. Your monk is not a worthless pile of
> >meat. Its not a mana sponge, or a helpless school girl. The monk class at
> >any level does a Great Deal of Damage, and in my opinion more than any
> >other melee class with the exception of a warrior with Plane of Fear equipment.
>
> Not a mana sponge? How many 120+ hits do you think a monk can take? See
> how long you can stand up to the frenzied ghoul even at 50th when you out level
> him by 5 or so! The next best thing to a healer is a great taunting tank or
> another
> melee class that dishes out more damage. I certainly am not whining about other
> classes doing more damage than me. I'd love to have them in my group! The
> problem I face is that if I go into a zone shouting "monk looking for group" I
> will be
> met by silence. Why? Suppose I actually do outdamage other classes. The
> problem is that I can't outdmage by enough to compensate for:
>
> the massive HPs of a warrior (complete heal becomes much more efficient and
> the warrior gives the cleric the time to cast it, and the warrior can taunt the
> mob
> off when it inevitably goes after the cleric).
>
> the dual wielding ability of a ranger with great weapons (ykesha = 44th level
> monk with similar skill) who can snare SOW and TRACK.
>
> Paladins with great quest weapons with a ton of HP, a complete heal, great
> taunting, and a great AC. Not to mention a role as a backup healer
>
> Rogues just tear mobs apart, easily outdamaging any other melee class in the
> game at high levels. Of course they are in far worse shape than monks without
> someone taking the mobs off them. Rogues were born nerfed and will die
> nerfed. But the rogue is still the master of melee.
>
> <and in a second post>
>
> >I didn't say it was. I don't think FD pulling is an exploit. It is handled
> >wrong in the Gameplay Logic. Personally I think once you FD and a mob _sees_
> >you back on your feet again, it should never believe another oneo of you
> >FDs. As I've said before, Verant has a MUD mentality in which they balance
> >gameplay at the expense of logic. This is bad design.
>
> What you neglect here is the fact that the mobs you are FD pulling (actually
> the mobs you aren't pulling) DON'T see you get up, assuming you are doing
> it right. Why should they run back to you when they don't see you get up? Of
> all the people who look down on us for complaining about the nerf, not ONE
> person has managed to explain what makes this more logical.
>
> <back to first post>
>
> >Your strength lies not with one or two glorious swings for 70 points of
> >damage, but in four punches for 23, and a flying kick for 52. Your Armor
> >class is not as high as a warriors, it never will be. Get used to it, but
> >also get used to Block, Dodge, Block. You hit points are lower, until you
> >factor in a 25% hit point heal every six minutes, you're selling yourself
> >short.
>
> How about a 44th level ranger hitting 4 times with his ykesha for 40+ each
> and a proc for 70? I have kicked for 111, but I usually miss and my average
> damage is maybe 40ish. Our defensive skills cap the same as theirs so they
> will dodge parry riposte about as much as we do.
>
> When travelling with a healer or 3 you should never need mend unless you bite
> off more than you can chew. But if that happens your group is more likely to
> evac.
>
> >As for playing with Twinked characters who out damage you, I must answer to
> >the positive. I've been playing with Ranger and Bard both of which carry top
> >of the line Ykeesha's and they generally out damage me (then again, they
> >take the damage then, too and I'm a hell of a lot harder to hit than some
> >ranger). The gap is narrowing however, and would be closed if they were not
> >wearing haste sashes. Remember, the higher you level, the less of an
> >advantage Twinking Gives.
>
> It is very easy to see how much of an impact twinking gives. But it is not
> really
> a matter of twinking. Equipment is permanent. And on old servers, with limited
> inventory/bank space, newer/better weapons will find their way down the line
> and the average level character holding a particular prize will decline over
> time.
> That's just the way the server based economy works. So it isn't a matter of
> monks
> getting worse, it is a matter of the weapons held by other melee classes getting
> better. I am sure Verant intended the monks to be masters of melee. For a
> while
> they succeeded quite well in my opinion. However, as the other melee classes of
> a particular level improve over time with new weapons, monks have basically been
> gathering dust and this melee edge has shrunk or become non-existent to the
> point
> that the other classes offer other things that outweigh any supposed edge we may
> have.
>
> For 1-handed weapons, the best a monk can ever do is dmg 14 delay 36. There
> are now a ton of weapons in the game that have better dmg/delay ratios than that
> and also proc for even more damage (at 44th level a monk is 12/36 which is the
> same ratio as a ykesha). Giving that to a warrior who has 1.5-2x your hp, and
> can
> taunt makes a monks damage dealing capacity in a group very much in doubt. Plus
> at the highest levels, melee is just to keep the mobs busy while the DoTs do
> their job
> and nukes finish the mob off. When shamans and druids can heal and DoT for
> 2000+ and wizards can chuck 1100+ per ice comet, the extra 2-3 points per hit we
> may or may not be adding just don't seem to be enough to compensate the group
> for
> any of the other abilities the other melee classes bring. That is the reason
> why monks
> got defined as pullers because it was the only thing we were unarguably the best
> at
> and of the most important contributions anyone can make to a group. How many
> plane or dragon raids were considered to require a monk (pre-patch)? It was
> a moot point. You had one or you just didn't bother. Now, monks can still
> chain
> pull if necessary and lay on the ground. Now even a wizard out melees the
> monk. I could be doing that, but that's just not any fun. Which is the whole
> point.
>
> >Yes Verant has changed our most unique skill, it will still save youin tight
> >situations
>
> Think again. Even the core purpose for FD has been seriously nerfed. It
> fails way way way too much, and new spawns can now see through it. And
> FD is now very very dangerous not just to the monk but to anyone in the same
> zone.
>
> >To be honest, I think we've passed the meaningful discussion of the class
> >and have entered into "the Grass is Greener" syndrome. If you're so unhappy
> >with your Monk, Give It Up and go play a Dark Elf Necro. Please don't take
> >the Monk Name in the Realm of Envious Complainers.
>
> It has nothing to do with any other class being better. I am all in favor of
> warriors rangers and what not being great in my group. I am not looking to
> be the star of the show. I just want to be invited to a show once in a while.
> The problem I have is not with all these great weapons lying around, but the
> general consensus at high levels that "monks are only needed for pulling, and
> if they can't pull why invite them into the group?"
>
> <rant on>
> That being said, I hear too much of this "play another character if you don't
> like
> the change" crap. Why even play in a game that consistently makes these sorts
> of changes? If I wanted to play a DE necro, I would have made one already (of
> course they have been seriously nerfed as well, but not as badly because they
> are still desirable in groups).
>
> I wanted to play a monk. The monk I wanted to play existed when the game
> started. I had something to look forward to. He doesn't anymore and there is
> nothing for me to look forward to unless I like to play with my face attached to
> the ground while the action surrounds me. In any case, even if I were to make
> another character, what will stop Verant from nerfing that class into the
> ground?
> Take a look at what's on the test server. Shaman spell diurations (eg SOW) are
> cut in half) and druids lost tracking. Who knows what else. Will monks get
> something in the future to make them seem useful again? Sure. They will
> introduce the Iskar monk removing yet another unique aspect of the (human)
> monk. What race will virtually all new monks be once the expansion comes?
> Humans? Guess again. It is very possible (and I am not prone to conspiracy
> theories) that the human monk is being phased out of existence. Of course
> we'll have to wait and see what the new race is like, but the email I got from
> Verant stated very little of what will be new aside from Iskar monks. An
> interview with brad McQuaid tells us not to expect any new skills unless we are
> Iskar.
>
> Tell me what else I can look forward to.
> <rant off>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:03:25 -0600 (CST)
> From: "Dizzy J." <dizzyj@...>
> Subject: Re: Easy Now
>
> > maybe FD pulling itself is an exploit? maybe verant never intended the
> > monk class
> > to be able to break spawns by fd pulling? maybe they just intended it as a
> > ''get out
> > of death free'' card for the individual monk? I personally think some
> > spawns should
> > not be able to be broken since it makes the game too easy.
> >
>
> I imagine they didnt think of fd pulling, it just happened. Thats whats
> kind of unrealistic. IMHO, whe you build a game of this magnitude, you
> build the environment, and see what falls. they planned on the monk being
> the melee damage dealer, and instead he ends up being a puller.
>
> I kind of see the fd pulling along the same lines as bard twisting. did
> they plan for that? probably not. But I bet bards would be upset if they
> removed that ability.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:50:34 EST
> From: JnglSkyPWR@...
> Subject: Re: Intellectual exercise was RE: Easy Now
>
> Our role hasn't really changed all that much (I'm speaking from the lvl 50
> point of view and pulling in the planes, and the harder mobs on Norrath.) We
> are still needed in PoH w/o a doubt. I believe Verant has nerfed FD to what
> they want it to be, which is just causing ppl to play more and items for high
> lvls harder to get. This is extremely evident in the drop percentage of
> plane armor. When PoF first opened, armor dropped quite often, now you can
> get groups of 18 to 30 ppl on a plane, spend 18 hours plus and get maybe 5 to
> 7 drops total. Verant is just tryin to make more money off us, and that is
> where my major gripe is. There are various ways around FD pulling technique.
> Pulling to a 'safe' spot and waiting til one mob is left, then have an
> archer shoot that one mob and pull it. This makes it so the monk cannot fight
> though the entire battle. Then we stand up, the aggroed monsters run back to
> us at the 'safe' spot and we FD again, having the archer pull one more when
> it is left. This method is the safest, but the most boring for us. Another
> method is to have an enchanter along. The monk pulls to the 'safe' spot, and
> has to wait until ALL aggroed mobs are on him, then FD. The enchanter cast
> their AE mem blur, and the monk waits until one mob is left, then pull it.
> This will not work on PoF, as the enchanter will be aggroed before being in
> range to cast the spell. It is also dangerous if ALL the mobs aggroed to the
> monk are not in area of the spell. So in standing will cause the ones not in
> range to aggro again and pull everything in the way on you again. This
> allows the monk to participate in the battle but is riskier. No longer are
> we able to pull AND fight, so we don't contribute nearly as much to a group
> anymore. Oh, and on a side note, FD DOES NOT work like they have said on
> mobs lvl 35+. From personal experience, I have FD 15 to 20 times in a row
> and still have mobs aggroing me that are no where near line of sight. The
> whole FD nerf and it's excuse for one is just a ploy by Verant to stall for
> the expansion, and for this reason as all others everyone has, I plead with
> you to continue to write in feedback to have FD put back to it's original
> status. We were once also instrumental in corpse recovery, but having mobs
> continued aggro, now it is near impossible unless the dungeon is a low lvl
> for the lvls involved. I could go on and on, but it would take hours to
> write out all the feelings I have on this subject.
>
> Kanja
> Rodcet Nife
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:55:53 EST
> From: JnglSkyPWR@...
> Subject: Re: Easy Now
>
> No, maybe they didn't see it when they FIRST programmed the game, but I
> played in beta and let me assure you, Verant saw what it could do when
> testing it. And if you think it makes the game too easy, I strongly
> encourage you to go to PoH and try to see what it would be like w/o monks
> pulling. Impossible. Sure a group of maybe 50 lvl 50s could do it, but
> whenever you get more than 24 ppl in an enclosed area fighting mobs, you
> normally have 1/6 of the ppl goin ld. And it get worse as you add more ppl,
> so plz tell me how anybody could do it, I'm more than willing to listen.
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:17:53 -0800 (PST)
> From: Worlord <worlord99@...>
> Subject: RE: Easy Now
>
> > Getting back to the point is the way in which two
> > main incidents were
> > handled. The first being the new monk robe, which is
> > marginally better than
> > a lockjaw vest AC 12 vs AC 9 vs and choice of which
> > stat increases you think
> > is most valuable. '
>
> What new monk robe? Do you mean Cured Silk Gi?
>
> If not what is name of this robe? stats? bonuses? what
> does it look like and where can it be found?
>
> Hammeron
> 20th Monk of Quellious
> The Chosen Ones
> Karana
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
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>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:58:31 EST
> From: JnglSkyPWR@...
> Subject: Re: Easy Now
>
> It's the new quest monk robe. You need to be around lvl 40 to get it, as the
> mobs you need to kill are in lower guk and in the solb king area. The mobs
> are VERY rare spawns, you get pattern and needle from them to make a robe.
> You must be a master tailor yourself, as these items are no drop. You take a
> swatch of shadow silk, bard song Johnathan's Whistling Warsong, the needle
> and the pattern from your quests and combine them to give you a robe (heard
> it is crimson in color) that's stats are worse than a foreman's tunic that
> can be obtained around lvl 30 from sola. So much for the wonderful monk
> quest items, bleh.
>
> Kanja
> Rodcet Nife
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
>
>