From 5198508047042328667 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: fb739,83940a247dce02ea X-Google-Attributes: gidfb739,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2002-03-05 14:31:12 PST Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!news2.telusplanet.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail From: "James Grahame" Newsgroups: alt.games.everquest References: <3C84BE4F.7D4B000F@stny.rr.com> Subject: Re: The Truth About Pet Damage/XP Lines: 379 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 22:31:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.232.72.216 X-Trace: news2.telusplanet.net 1015367469 216.232.72.216 (Tue, 05 Mar 2002 15:31:09 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 15:31:09 MST Xref: archiver1.google.com alt.games.everquest:172503 Ok, I looked up the original post on the Dev boards and got riled up enough to copy over a lot of it here for comment. :-) Understand that I come from the perspective of someone with a 60 cleric, three melees level 40 or higher (max 55), then four casters level 35 or less (min 27), with one of the casters being a 30 mage. I've snipped anything that was well explained, or which concerned PvP. Questions For The Magician Class General 1) All classes in EverQuest have a role that grows with them as they progress upwards in levels. A different role for each different class, some healers, some melee damage dealers, some magic damage dealers. What is the intended role for the Magician Class to fill, in relation to other classes like Warriors, Wizards, or Monks? -Tuni Gearspinner A) Magicians are about pets and blasting things, along with a few debuffs and damage shields. Of course they also summon a bunch of stuff. But this question seems to be about combat potential. Pets allow a mage to deal melee damage and tie up an enemy while regaining mana, a sort of living (kinda) melee DoT. So I suppose I see their 'role' when it comes to combat as both melee and magic damage dealers with some utility. I get the feeling that I'm missing the point of this question, since that answer seems pretty obvious. James: the point of the question, as far as I can tell, is this: what do you think magicians should be doing at the different levels? At pre-50, they summon utility items, use pets and nukes to inflict damage, and provide damage shields. By level 60 (raid level) they summon one utility item (mod rods), provide damage shields and one specific resist debuff, and use Call of the Hero to summon people to the raid group. A lot of the utility of the class that exists at lower levels is lost, and the damage potential of the class drops dramatically. Is this intended? 2) Do you feel Magicians are fulfilling this role well in comparison to other classes filling their roles at present? -Tuni Gearspinner A) Obviously we feel that there are some adjustments to be made. I understand the problems post 50, for a lot of casters. And I understand how twinking items affects, or rather doesn't affect, casters. The team understands it too. You'll just have to give us some time to work on it. James: one of the quickest fixes that could be put in the game would be to uncap the gain from +mana items at low levels. This doesn't increase the damage output of a low-level caster (like removing the weapon max hit cap would for melees), but it does increase the chance of a low-level caster to emerge victorious from an encounter. Remember, +HP items aren't capped and they directly lengthen the time a melee has to inflict damage, and thus their total damage output in the encounter. Since casters deal damage through expending mana, it makes sense to give them the same relative advantage. 5) Does Verant truly believe we are still overpowered after three expansions, especially from level 50 upwards? -Biggerin Allahya A) Not really (that's my opinion, but I'm pretty sure most folks on the team would agree). Again, we're going to have to determine things like that in a more quantitative way than just "believe". Personally, I think magicians are pretty much in line up to about 50. After that, if a few issues could be worked out, I think they'd be right back in line. But don't discount the value of being able to solo pretty easily in the early levels. Such ability doesn't define a class, nor does it mean that a class should be underpowered later. But it has value as well. James: This is a bit of a dodge. Melees are beginning to solo every bit as well as casters, even at lower levels, due to enhanced damage output from easy-to-obtain weapons sold by other players. My own warrior could clear the dead side Lower Guk hallway faster than any mage I saw there could, because: (1) her damage output was very enhanced with weapons from post-Old World expansions, (2) her AC was well above what was planned for those mobs, (3) she could recover HPs with bandaging faster than a mage could recover mana from medding, (4) because of (2) she could handle an add or two without being forced to flee. 7) Was chain casting pets intended to be a primary ability of the magician, specifically 50+? -Zebanar A) Intended? Probably not during the design of the class, though three or four years later that's hard to tell. Is it a strategy that we are aware of now? Sure. Primary ability? In so much as pets are a large part of what Mages do, yes. THE primary ability? Probably not. James: again, the point has been missed here. Because of design flaws (low AC/HP pets, no adequate pet heals, inability of pet to hold aggro) mages have been forced to chain-cast pets at higher levels (post-50) when soloing. This neatly sidesteps the pet XP issue, but is it really how mages should be soloing? For those that don't know, when your original pet is getting low on life you back away a bit, start casting a new pet, and just before the new pet is cast do a /pet get lost on the existing pet. Pets 1) Is there any chance that in the future the experience penalty for a pet doing over 50% of the damage while soloing to any monster will be removed? -Ghalon Soulburn A) There's always a chance. Again, we'll look at that as well when we review casters. However, remember that whatever 'soloing ability' Mages have now (whether considered great or average) would be dramatically increased if pets suddenly stopped earning experience for all of their hard work and sacrifice. James: the problem is this: how can the mage do over 50% of the attributed damage (so excluding damage shield damage) without taunting the mob off the pet? A pet's inability to hit well at higher levels (when the pet is quite low level compared to the target mobs) or hit significantly faster/with more taunt cripple the mage's ability to actually nuke, leaving them with the chain-cast pets tactic. There's a reason the earth pet becomes the standard pet as one levels - it Roots. 7) As a magician, my pet is my lifeblood. It is what sets me apart from being a poor man's Wizard. Does Verant believe our pets (Particularly 50+, and our Epic pets) are overpowered, and if so in what situations (i.e. experience grouping, raiding or soloing)? -Silvasa T`Karr A) We're looking at that right now. Reviewing pets is part of the process. I could give my opinion, but it might vary from the opinion of the guy sitting next to me, whose opinion might be different than the next guy. Instead, I'll wait and see what kind of results come out of the review. James: this had to frustrate mages, who think that their pets become increasingly irrelevant as they level. Note that when pressed, Verant gave the "this is what damage you should do relative to a warrior" comparison metric during the melee review. Hopefully a similar metric will be released during the caster review, *relative to the same warrior*. 8) Will a pet equip armour, jewellery and weapons that are not NODROP and receive the statistical benefits they offer? -Siadhail A) A good rule is this: If it will equip a weapon it will probably equip most items, if that item is better than one it may already have. Better in the pet's mind might not match what the owner thinks is better, and the value of some items to pets is questionable (giving your pet + Int items won't make the pet choose better targets.). Also keep in mind that the value that your pet gains from the use of a piece of armor probably won't be the same value that a PC would gain from it. Skill levels have a lot to do with how a character absorbs or avoids damage. James: Sigh. What in the world is stopping Verant from saying point blank: "Pets will equip the weapon with the best feature X, and armour with the best feature Y"? Especially with armour - a mage cannot gauge WHAT armour a pet has equipped except by guessing, and given that the answer also states that armour has different effects on pets than it does on PCs the benefits of armouring pets becomes anecdotal. Doesn't Verant realize that if they told mages how to better protect their pets, that mages would go do it and be happier with the pets they already have? This even opens up avenues for new mage-summoned items, like the Luclin summons, meant specifically to improve pets. But until players know that this is worthwhile, they won't consider it when deciding if pets are any good. 9) Why can pets no longer taunt a monster off of any player character that has aggravated a monster (No matter how slightly) that is within the monsters melee range? -Nandail Mandragoran A) I don't have an answer for this question at this time. James: I do. Nerf done to avoid having charmed pets tank big mobs, like the Avatar of War. Now, if a Charm buff also had a hate reducing component (like that new Luclin player buff), perhaps this nerf could be reversed. I honestly don't know how such a change would impact classes that solo using charm, but I hope the option is at least looked at seriously. 11) Will the Magician epic quest ever have Quillmane changed to a triggered spawn, or have a similar monster added to Southern Karana that can be triggered? -Ronaldor Vladimir A) We don't have any plans to change that part of the quest. My suggestion, at least for younger magicians, would be to get the cloak when you're of a level to gain experience in the zone. Play there and have fun, snag Quillmane while you're there. James: Again, he's missing something. The cloak has enough intrinsic value that high-level players with tracking and run speed of SoW level or higher will stay in the zone to get the cloak, and they WILL get Quillmane before the mage. Unlike other epic items that are/were loot items (Kedge Robe, Ghoulsbane etc.) the cloak has an almost unique effect - right click Levitation. Add to that the multiquestability of the cloak and you only increase the desire of non-mages to bag Quillmane. It would seem reasonable to make SOME change to the current setup of this part of the quest. 13) Do you have any intention on improving current pet control mechanisms in the near future, and/or adding new controls and /pet commands to pet control, if so what do you have in mind? -Noonie Vilotskies A) Not really. The current control commands fall within the range of effective but not too effective. Remember, part of the value of a live player over a pet is that the player is smarter (though maybe not as easily controlled.). James: A disappointing answer. Part of what keeps mages from grouping with other players is that the pet is seen as a liability, and not a source of strength. And telling a mage "group with friends" doesn't help when nobody will group with them in the first place because "mages can't control their pets". Really, the one command that would make this problem go away is the one command that was introduced with alt. XP - /pet hold, making the pet ignore everything until otherwise instructed. It's too bad mages need to get to level 59 and get a pile of alt XP points before they can actually control their pets as well as a two-boxed Monk and Shaman can control themselves. 14) Is there a code imposed limit on the number of pets that can be actively engaging a single monster, and if so what is that limit? -Istaron A) Yes. No more than four pets can engage a single target. This is basically to prevent use of only pets to defeat opponents. We think it's important to have some player characters involved in the combat at times. James: This is even more depressing. Even assuming mages get their pets fixed to the point where they'd be assets on a raid, they'd have to fight with the other mages, necromancers, and enchanters (Charm or Dire Charm) present to be able to use those pets. It also puts restrictions on effective grouping for XP on pet classes that aren't on other classes, although that's a minor point. 16) Is there any plan to try and improve pet pathing in the future, if so what is it? -Kysis Ka Tra A) "Pet pathing" isn't something that we can just flip a switch and make better. It's a complicated system. We make improvements where we can. James: Actually, you could. You've already fixed the pathing of pets following a mage - the pets can be parked and summoned to the mage's location. It's not optimal, but it was a good fix. If the problem is "pets follow odd paths to get to a target", remove the problem - have pets warp to melee range when told to attack an NPC. NPCs warp to PCs when they cannot path to them properly as a fix to poor pathing, after all. 18) Why are pets taking so long to buff themselves? -Halves A) There are a LOT of pets in EverQuest. Pets casting buffs use up bandwidth and CPU cycles. Zones with a lot of pets could be adversely affected by all the pets casting stuff. We increased the time that all pets will take between buffs to reduce resources used. James: "I'm sorry, we nerfed you to save bandwidth." Ouch. Perhaps if Verant hadn't done that duration nerf they wouldn't have this problem? Duration nerf: NPCs used to have their buffs last longer than if the same buff was cast on a PC to reduce bandwidth taken with rebuffing. But - GASP! - this was also affecting buffs cast on pets. So duration on all NPC buffs was reduced to stop pets from getting extra buff time. Sounds like a good enhancement to give back to pet classes, doesn't it? 21) The Monster Summoning line of spells is in effect no different to our normal pets except in the fact they look different, will they ever be changed to behave more like the monsters they actually are? -Zebanar A) We don't have any plans to change Monster Summoning. And if by "behave more like the monsters they actually are" you mean "do a ton more damage and have a ton more hit points", then the answer is no. Changes to these pets might happen during the balancing process, but any such changes would probably be small when compared to "the monsters they actually are". James: it would be nice if there existed in game a focus item for the monster summoning line of spells, then, so they could at least be useful instead of party tricks run up and down the Oasis beach. Spells 1) My question is does Verant believe our current summoned item line to be as useful as it should be compared to other class's utility spells? -Aammelno A) Well, that depends on the utility spell in question. Spirit of Wolf? Probably not. Ultravision? Sure. True North? Absolutely! We'll certainly be looking at this as well during the balancing pass. James: hopefully this will also be looked at in terms of making pets better with summoned gear. Being able to summon No Rent resist gear, for example, would vastly improve pets against mobs with AoEs (hopefully) without changing the actual power of a base pet. 3) What line of spells are our "class defining spells"? -The Dweller In The Darkness A) Pets, bolts, summoned items, Malo. There are probably those that use damage shields a lot and might call them defining. I would avoid getting hung up on the whole idea of "class defining". James: This question gets back to "what are we supposed to do on a raid?" It's a VERY valid question to ask, seeing as how in the end raiding is important, and it should be answered. If Verant can't figure out why a mage should be on a raid, or comes back with a role ("damage dealer") which mages aren't good at compared with others, then a change has to be made either to Verant's vision or to the class to better match the vision. Wouldn't you like to know before starting a character if what that character will end up doing will fit your personality? And what mages feel they're forced to do now doesn't match with what they did levelling up. 7) Why is there a 6 level limit for what a caster can land spells on, but no apparent cap exists for melee? -Eandori A) There isn't really a six level limit. Here's how it works: There is a level limit for spell effects that has a minimum of six levels. A spell will not affect an NPC that is more than 1.3 times your level, or 6 levels higher, which ever is greater. So at 15th level it's 6 levels. At 40th it's 12 levels. Now, how often is a 40th level warrior going to actually hit while attacking a 53rd level NPC? James: The answer to that question is moot if in fact the level 40 melee CAN land blows on a level 53 mob. The caster simply cannot land any spells on the mob. I think this issue deserves to be revisited, both at the end game level and in XP group situations. Items 2) Why does our Velious robe have a level 49 damage shield while the Druid breast plate has a 58 group regeneration, and the Necromancer robe has a level 57 corpse summon? -Xerath Dar'Khan A) It's not entirely fair to just point at spell levels and use that as a basis for the 'balance' of such items. I'll leave it to the balancing folks to make any determination about this sort of change. James: If you assume that the spells themselves are balanced for the level they are obtained, then yes, it is a fair metric for comparison. Especially when you consider that higher level versions of the same spell exist. 7) Why are the Staves of Elemental Mastery 2Hb and have no additional statistics on them? -Bouya A) Again, I have no idea. For a lot of these questions you're asking why something was done. Unless I can get in the heads of the folks that designed these things, there's no way for me to know. If what you really want to know is "Why don't we change these things to something we think would be more useful?", then my answer is, we just might. Let's see what comes of the caster balancing. James: I think these questions are being asked now so Verant WILL consider them when caster balancing is done. Mages like focus items because, frankly, the base stat pets just aren't so hot (unless you recast and recast until you get a max level pet), and Verant should like them because they're items and not intrinsics of spells. That actually brings up a pet (no pun intended) idea of mine - reduce mage downtime and "increase" pet power by eliminating the lowest two pets a given spell can summon. So if a summon spell could get you a 22,23,24,or 25 pet, eliminate the chance to get a 22 or 23. Skills 7) Will our new skill Group Buff ever be replaced as Magicians only have one group buff? -Finraziel A) We knew it would be of limited appeal to most Mages in the short term. But who knows what spells we might choose to add in the future (and, no, this is not a promise that we'll be adding such spells). Not all Alternate Advancement abilities are going to be extremely appealing. James: No alt XP ability should be so UNappealing, either. Verant could have just as easily given mages something else neat now, and if and when they got more group buffs (and I doubt they will) given them Mass Group Buff at that time. Quick and easy idea, could be added to other nuking classes: Ability X, after using Ability X the next spell you cast is resisted as a lure. Refresh X minutes, X > 20 (idea being once per big encounter). 8) Why do we have to get 27 levels of Alternate Advancement for /pet hold when that should be given to us for free by the 50th level at least? -Lord Gojirax A) Because we don't feel that it "should be given" to you any earlier. It's represents a complete mastery over your pet, something only achieved after much work. Earning your way to the level needed to get that ability is part of the effort of becoming a master. James: Sigh, roleplaying reasons to make the gameplay bite. James begin 666 smile.gif M1TE&.#EA#P`/`)$!`````+^_O___`````"'Y! $```$`+ `````/``\```(N MC V9QY$"X6(@6GGJO0!)+3RA$XDA:&Y6JGXMIX$K%G,8^2EE]G:4?&ID%+Y# #`0`[ ` end